1) DEschedule. 2) Repeal. 3) DONE! It's that simple. If only we can get people to understand it...and stop begging for anything less.
Marijuana and Cannabis News
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| Huffington Post |
| A fanatical supporter of "Prince of Pot" Marc Emery has been arrested for repeated death threats to Emery's federal prosecutors |
Paul George Cartier, 50, has "a history of other threats," according to the U.S. Secret Service, reports Keegan Hamilton at the Seattle Weekly, including once having mailed a letter to the White House containing white power labeled "anthrax."
Emery, the B.C.-based marijuana seed millionaire, pleaded guilty in 2008 to exporting cannabis seeds to the U.S. After having been indicted in Seattle, Emery almost worked out a deal under which he could have served his time in a Canadian prison, but when that fell through, the feds were busily working to get the Prince of Pot on the American side of the border.
Bragging that he made $2 million a year from his mail-order marijuana seed business, Emery cut a flamboyant and outspoken figure in the cannabis community, crusading for pot law reform and donating to various weed-friendly causes. He was a major contributor to the 2008 presidential campaign of libertarian Republican Ron Paul.
Emery's high-profile case and apparent martyrdom "spawned a devoted following," the Weekly reports, and on the afternoon of December 10, 2009, "perhaps his most fanatical minion dialed the Western Washington U.S. Attorney's office."
That would be Cartier, and his rambling voice message -- left for a deputy assistant federal prosecutor identified in court documents only as T.G. -- included the following choice phrases:
Hey, go fuck yourself 'cuz you touch him, you extradite him, you're gonna be dead. Your office is gonna be taken out and you'll be killed. I'm not messin' around here. I've got some hit men who'll get ya, and I've got some people in the U.S. Government, and the CIA, and this is for real. Don't touch Marc. You leave him right where he is. He's not coming to Seattle. You do not handle him or touch him. [...] You're dead already.
Apparently leaving a voice message with a death threat wasn't enough of a day's work for Cartier, because he then also sent a fax to the U.S. Attorney's office a few minutes later. Here's what the fax said:
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Cartier still wasn't done after sending the fax; he then made a brief phone call to the receptionist in the U.S. Attorney's office, according to court documents saying "I'm going to fucking kill you and [prosecutor] T.G. when I get to town."
After a week of quiet, Cartier, on December 17, allegedly left another voice mail, this time calling himself "666" and repeating his extremely odd "diapers" death threat. He ended the message with the phrase "You're all dead."
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After another threatening phone exchange with the receptionist, federal investigators indicted Cartier on December 23, 2009 on felony "interstate threat" charges.
After two and a half years, Cartier was finally arrested on May 8. He's being held in federal custody pending a mental competency exam.
Emery remains in federal prison in Mississippi, from which he campaigns for, among other causes, Washington's I-502 semi-legalization measure, which will be on November's general election ballot.
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49 comments
@ ElectroPig Von FökkenGrüven Several of us have witnessed her nasty attacks on individuals who just don't agree with her, and for whatever reason piss her off. She won't learn how to behave any differently as long as people in the movement keep rewarding her by allowing her to speak at places, lavishing her with praise, without giving any consequence to her appalling behavior. I'm sure much of the permissiveness stems from her having HIS last name, and the money they've thrown at people. So she's tolerated. But truly respected? I wonder. I highly respect Steve Elliott because when she tried attacking him he didn't lie down like a wet noodle. He stood up to her and was not intimidated by her or her blind supporters. More people need to stand up to her and tell her no, this is unacceptable behavior for a woman who's nearing 30 years old. Each time she attacks someone, you've got to wonder, how much credibility does she lose? Does this bode well for Marc's image? If she really loves him maybe she should work on representing him in a more positive manner-- to ALL people, not to just the ones that agree with her. She has burned a few bridges. At the end of the day, her behavior causes more division in the movement. It's time this behavior is challenged, questioned and stopped for the good of everyone trying to affect a POSITIVE change, not just stir up gradeschool like drama!
Well, not more than 4 or 5 years ago, I was 100% in support of the Emerhhoids...but after seeing her attacks online against completely innocent people, witnessing some with my own eyes, and being the target of several of her attacks myself...your picture changes with new information. Due to what I've seen myself, I would be hard-pressed to take anything she says at face value, but not nearly so reserved about taking anything said about either of them as having more weight...no matter who said it. That's the way life works...the more you experience, the greater your understanding of the truth behind how things really work.
The precedent has been set that, whenever any foreign dictator demands that we give up one of our citizens, that the Harper government is more than willing to send away any Canadian when asked. Whoever this psycho death threat afficionado might be, you can be 100% certain that if asked, he'll be wrapped up and shipped overnight via the quickest possible carrier...Emperor Harperius will move him to the states so fast they won't even need to cut airholes into the box.
Her "poor me" act is just that. It's all an act. She goes after people with a vengeance it seems, and then claims to be a "poor me" victim in it all. Ridiculous behaviour.
And Jodie is a perfect person who never goes after people online attacking them? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
And I don't think it's very funny to be a humorless twit, but then there ya go. Here's the real deal: It IS news to threaten federal prosecutors' lives over marijuana cases. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. No, scratch that: I'm not sorry it makes you uncomfortable -- I'm sorry your ass hurts so much, all the time.
I like Marc Emery, from what I know of him via the media these years. He did play the Messiah game and payed the price, and will most probably have the last laugh. He certainly does not meet my criterium for a 'Hero' but is definitely seems a notable and honorable person. His wife seems a well meaning enough, both are dead wrong, I mean dead wrong on I502.
However, this 'Shavluk', sounds like a sour-grapes sucking, homo-phobic, punk-ass-bitch who might find it useful to get over his jealousy, resentment and self-absorbed anger, shut the fuck up and get going on with kicking some kind of ass in his own life. Props to Steve Elliot for allowing the dumbass to run his mouth, this is still America and every asshole gets to have an opinion. Whats more, 502 is Bad Law and Will Not Pass.
Again one of emerys employees and again too much a coward to even use a real name
I stand by all my comments and thank all those smart enough to look into things themselves
emery lies about so much that my book will show his supporters as idiots
He was nothing more than a leech ...a parasite... sucking what he could hiding behind our issue
And its obvious you are stupid because if you dont support I 502 again you are completely ignorant to how hard it is to get something before the electorate and have no clue how alcohol was re legalized and how many steps it took or years
Idiots ....self interested exploiters and celebrity wannabees thinking using cannabis makes them an activist is all I see here in arguments against I 502
Loooosers
I stand with my record and my efforts and say maybe potheads just are stupid
And if I 502 fails the other side with its agents like this flake have been successful again
I would sooner fight a DUI than to fight a trafficking or possession charge but then I have done my time in jail and some of you need to still go I suppose as your ignorance shows
I dont have time to respond to every coward and their fake names whether a cop trying to killl I 502 or not so please just go here
http://pottalk.ning.com/forum/...
And decide for yourselves about this fake flake mark emery as I was actually there and can and will correct the story on all of it in my book
To Steve Elliott:
It should be clear to you by now this Shavluk person is a rabid, low-life of the foulest order. Just because someone knew the details of your sex life, do you think that should be license for them to splash it all over a forum - with God-knows-what embellishments?
If you don't ban and delete this poster, I will lose much respect for you.
Hahhaha wow
It should also be clear here who got his ass kickedjonyboy maybe its just time you sucked it up and came to realize your insignificance in all things eh?
wow some anonymous name ..some coward hiding his cannabis support behind a fake name or some public open real name using long time activist that no one else has accomplished as much as him in the Canadian scene and you think because the truth hurts he should be abused eh?
He meaning me
Use truth jonyboy or buzz off Get the facts jackI stand by all I say ...do you?
And I am easy to find anytime you feel lucky sonny
The sad simple fact is that no one did more damage on this issue politically here in canada than your pimple of pot ...mark emery
I was there you weren't as none of us there were cowards hiding in anonymity
So go as you add nothing and only attack me for telling the truth
The smart ones here know jody is silent because I am right and to them its very telling
It is not a business to some of us and my jail time makes me think truth matters above infamous quasi celebrity idiots
Get over your fake self please
Thanks for responding. I don't know Emery, I don't know his wife, and I don't know their personal and business history in any meaningful way. As an impartial observer it seems the reasons for your complaints are mighty small compared to the intensity and toxicity of your complaints. So he raised and spent money and made personal and business decisions you don't support. That doesn't matter. Go live your own life.
Yawn...................................................
HO HUM
Another coward hiding with a fake name..hi jody or what ever employee instead charged with the task
Any one but me notice the obvious silence from emerys latest wife??
Tsk tsk tsk.....maybe one of you also on the cannabis tit can whine again for her how bad I am for reminding some the rest of the story on the prime prick of pot???
"I know the truth and make all my own payments not once exploiting users as the highest priced anything"
Yeah, but you are exploiting the poorest paid Chinese people who built your computer...so complaining about the richest people on earth paying prohibitively expensive prices for prohibited products makes you seem like a foolish hypocritical jerk.
Do you think you made a point anywhere in there? If so, you are deluded. Have you got anything to contribute to the discussion, or are you nothing but venomous personal attack?
"It is not a business to some of us"
So you are upset that someone else made a buck and spent it? Is that the nature of your complaint?
No the nature of my complaint is exploiters and liars
Whats yoursRunning in elections with the idiot and in the riding over as we are both address debates he decides on the fly that all those 70 and over are to be cut off medical coverage
That no one needs to know I have obtained a party who says the will legalize cannabis as emery muses no one will need him then....I said then and still say no one needs you now mark
The nature of my complaint is also about taking calls from some that either had their kid taken and hidden in emerys store or that they think they were slipped GHB and taken against their wishes
I could write a book about the nature of my complaints
Stay tuned
I sat in a jail cell as an innocent man 21 years ago and have been fighting ever since while emery sat in london selling comic books
I know the truth and make all my own payments not once exploiting users as the highest priced anythingI worked with my bare hands and earned over 5- 70 grand that I spent getting legalized cannabis policy now in three political partys and still gave that idiot thousands only to find out he was a fake and a flake
This just quickly off the top of my headPS ...one more...emery after he blew the 50 grand we raised to fight his battle in court he instead spent 80 grand just to stop a head shop owner in court just from using the words cannabis culture...friendly stranger head shopThis after pretending to be Gandhi etc ...and then he has the gall to pretend he made a deal to save the other BC 2 ...and if you knew my friend michelle rainey you would know she called him a liar on that one and was like me disgusted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The only deal he made was for himself ..cowering in fear So he could save the cash cow...his egoplex..his storeI am easy to find and stand by all I say
Death threats are very common for right wing causes, cannabis is one of those causes that's neither left nor right, most of the pot movement is peaceful types, but there's a few who take it very very seriously.
Steve,
You need to divide and label your articles between satire, news, and editorial so people know where you are coming from.
Fromhttp://pottalk.ning.com/fo... Heres emery himself....."Judith Retchen, of the Superior Court of Washington D.C. sentenced a man, this man, this quadriplegic with a breathing apparatus, to jail for 10 days ... Jonathan Magbie died in jail. Murdered by the state; murdered by Judge Judith Retchen. ... part of me says "kill that judge, kill judge Judith Retchen; somebody, some American with any compassion, sympathy, and patriotism should kill this judge; it would be an act of mercy for our culture, it would be an act of mercy for all peoples of the United States; this is the devil put behind a desk, sent out to murder people" ____________________________________________________________________________Its no wonder this guy did as he did as emery talked like this when he thought he was untouchable and a big wheel hahhaha
So there you have it all you Emeryheads out there, Emery not only calls the Justice Minister a NAZI JEW, tells people what drugs to slip in women and girls foods to make their judgment just off enough to enter into sex acts they might not under sober conscience -- THE LEADER OF A PROVINCIAL PARTY PUBLICLY MUSED AND COUNSELLED HIS FOLLOWERS THAT KILLING A US SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE WOULD BE A COMPASSIONATE ACT.
SOURCE; http://bcmarijuanaparty.com/ar... ... hings.html
But hey this is Marc Emery we're talking about, right? and this is about Canada's horrible evil marijuana laws and our threatened soverignty!
John Shavluk is a mentally ill bully. He's totally obsessed with Marc Emery in a very bizarre and disturbing way, spreading lies and malicious slander every chance he gets. He harasses me and Marc all the time, but is clearly unstable - thank goodness no one takes him seriously, as it's obvious from reading anything he writes that he's a raving madman. Just watch; he'll post more lies and attacks against me after this is posted... he's stalking me online, just as he does on everything Marc and I do. Disturbing and weird.
Sure jody
Prove any thing I say is a lie instead of begging for a fake hero
I spent 5 years involved before you ever even showed up and know the truth
People can make up their own minds any way cant they?And contrary to some it is not just a business like it is to you and your current flake husband as you explained why he needed to take $40,000 a month for himself and his harem wasnt it?
He wrapped himself in my issue and gave crumbs to only those who would promote himHe lived the high life preening and fantasizing he was actually doing something...
Then when I got a political party to say they would re legalize cannabis he deleted that and hid it from his members and told them to vote for our jailers union party because he bum buddy danal arsen was in them
I stand by all I say and after others tried in just one for close to 40 years I have brought legal cannabis policy to now three mainstream canadian political party's by earning money with my bare hands and not just fleecing americans as the highest priced seed re-seller on the planet
Yes while pretending being the highest priced seed pimp of others seeds would over grow the government faster than being the cheapest seed pimp !!!! hahhahhaha sure jody
He never gave them away because he ran a business as jody saysMy friends grew them and were not even paid for them
While you are here maybe explain about emery having anal sex with that guy and his venereal disease and how you and him engaged in group sex remember how he went on about you and a few guys?? yes....at cannabis culture ""sexuality threads""
Sadly these idiots posted it all openly at cannabis culture in 2005 as I say when they thought themselves untouchable and some kind of royalty hahhahhahha
Or shall I post it all here for you jody?
I stand by every word I say...prove other wise or shut your cake hole and go beg some more
And I'd also like to let your readers know that, as added to that article you copied from - but which you chose not to include, thereby implying that Marc is somehow associated with this insane person:
Update 5/22/2012 @ 12:15 p.m.
Emery's wife Jodie contacted Seattle Weekly to emphasize that her imprisoned husband has never met Cartier, and does not condone his alleged threats of violence. "Marc Emery has no idea who this person is and has no connection to him in any form," Jodie Emery says. "Neither of us support what this guy has done. He's absolutely crazy, obviously."
Thanks, Jodie. That was what I was alluding to in my post this morning. This "article" is clearly an attempt to discredit Marc by being "associated" with this lunatic.
It's the dirtiest of tactics, Steve, and one can draw no other conclusion than you do it out of jealousy. Please grow up.
How does this "news" have any relevancy to marijuana reform? This guy is just one of the thousands of nuts going off every day.
The site is for "cannabis news, views, rumor, and humor.: This falls, I think, under humor. I know I laughed at the guy's rants, didn't you?
Steve, I know you dislike me and Marc now, but you know as well as I do that Marc Emery is NOT a "marijuana seed millionaire", that he gave away those millions of dollars to marijuana ballot initiatives (Colorado, Washington DC, Nevada, and others), suing the US federal government on behalf of 30 patients, funding medical marijuana court challenges and cases, financing the Marijuana Policy Project when it was going defunct, paying for NORML and US Marijuana Party campaigns, and so much more. When Marc was arrested, he had $11 in his bank account - admitted by the US prosecution - and had given away all of the money to reform. That's why he wasn't fined when he was sentenced; the investigation found that he has nothing to his name. So for you to call him a millionaire continues the propaganda of the prohibitionists.
You also wrote "He was a major contributor to the 2008 presidential campaign of libertarian Republican Ron Paul." But that isn't true. One of his friends in the USA donated money to Ron Paul, but Marc - as a Canadian citizen - could not have done that. You want a list of some of what Marc did with the seed money? Here's a very partial list:
Help to Compassion Clubs:
* Gave $15,000 toward re-establishing VICS (Vancouver Island Compassion Society) in Victoria after a raid in 2003* Gave $2,000 to Lyn Harichy's club in London, Ontario in 2002 after raid* Gave $10,000 to BC Compassion Club for legal fees
Help to Court Battles:* Gave $28,000 toward airfares, train fares, hotel rooms and lawyers for medical marijuana class action suit against US federal government in 1999 in Philadelphia* Gave $85,000 toward Canadian Supreme Court challenge to legalize marijuana , 19995-2003, when we lost in the Canadian Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision in December 2003* Gave $12,000 to Nimbin Hemp Embassy after Police Raid in 2001
Ballot Initiatives & Political Activity* Gave $5,000 to pay for signatures to put medical marijuana initiative on DC ballot in 1998* Gave $10,000 to pay for signatures to put medical marijuana on Colorado ballot in 2000* Gave $15,000 to pay for signatures to put medical marijuana on Arizona ballot in 2000* Gave a combined total of $17,000 to promote Alaska legalization ballot initiatives in 2000, 2002, 2004* Gave $152,000 to finance 79 candidates for BC Marijuana Party's full slate in BC provincial election of 2001* Gave $35,000 to provide brochures, cards, advertising, deposits, for 2000 Canadian Marijuana Party campaign* Provided $20,000 to 44 candidates of BC Marijuana Party for literature, advertising in 2005 campaign* Provided $20,000 to run for Mayor in 2002* Provided $12,000 to run for Mayor in 1996* Provided $3,000 to the Israeli Green Leaf Party in 2003* Provided $6,000 to Aotearoa (New Zealand) Legalize Cannabis Party in 1999* Provided $35,000 to US Marijuana Party from 2002-2005* Provided $30,000 to conduct the Summer of Legalization Tour in 2003, arrested 6 times (Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, St. John's, Moncton and Regina)* Financed Global Marijuana March from 1999-2005 with $35,000 annually = $205,000* Gave $5,000 to Journey for Justice in Florida in 2002* Gave $2,000 to Journey for Justice in Texas in 2003* Provided $8,000 to print 50,000 color cards supporting NDP candidates across Canada in 2004 election after Layton promises to support marijuana legalization* Gave Marijuana Policy Project $15,000 to start it off in 1998* provides $15,000 to challenge the Canadian government's Drug Literature Ban (prohibiting the sale of High Times Magazines, Emperor Has No Clothes, grow guides in any retail location) in court, July 1994 - July 1995, culminating in court victory overturning the ban. Emery has been distributing banned books and magazines about cannabis trying to get charged from 1991-1992, 1994-1995.
Other Funded Activities:
* Provided $210,000 for free drug treatment for 61 patients over two years at Iboga Therapy House from 2002-2004 using pioneering methods with ibogaine hydrochloride * Provided money annually for April 20 celebrations in Vancouver from 1995 (first one worldwide) to 2005 = $45,000 total over 10 years.* Provided $10,000 to U.K. Green Party for a massive rally in London, England protesting prohibition in 2001* Provided $1,000 to Anti-Prohibition Parade in Bologna, Italy in 2004.* provided $400 in 2005 to put together packages to submit to Malaysian Embassy to stop execution of man convicted of cannabis trafficking* PROVIDED $45,000 for staff and offices of HEMP BC Legal Assistance Center (Vancouver) from July 1996 to Dec. 1997 to provide free legal service to people charged with cannabis offenses* Sponsored Chris Bennett's Entheogenesis I & II in 2002 and 2003, $20,000* John Walters Repudiation project, Nov. 2002, $750* Provided $15,000 to purchase two full pages ads in Vancouver Sun and Vancouver Province in Nov. 1997 to protest the meeting of Asia-Pacific Economic Countries (APEC) in Vancouver. The ads outlined and condemned the prohibition policies of each nation in attendance.* Opened the first Vapor Lounge/Cafe (called Cannabis Cafe) at 301 West Hastings with all hemp foods & vaporizers at every table on July 2 1997. Closed in Sept. 1998 after police raids.* Sponsored Tokers Bowls from 2002 to 2005 with subsidy of $25,000 each year* Provided Steve Kubby Refugee Project with $17,000 in 2001-2002* Provided $5,000 to Steve Tuck Refugee Project in 2001* Provided $25,000 to Renee Boje Refugee Project in 2000-2004* Financed POT.TV in its pioneering period from 2000-2005 with $800,000 over 6 years (no commercial revenue flowed to POT.TV, completely underwritten with seed sales)* Gave $2,000 to Joe Doe Radio to keep it going* Gave $1,000 to Free Talk Live* to keep it going* Gave $1,000 to buy half page ad in Timmins, Ontario newspaper in late 1999 to protest police ban of High Times and Cannabis Culture at local stores. Publisher Emery goes to Timmins and gives out 500 copies free in front of Timmins police station, 350 people crowded the police station, get free copies & smoke out said cop shop. No arrests are made.* Provides $15,000 to put Kirk Tousaw through university classes and his Canadian Bar Exam in 2004
I like you Jodie and Marc as well. There are lots of greedy people in this world and they look to satisfy themselves at the expense of others.
Wow I just about puked laughing at the stupidity in this list
So when you add it all up it was about promoting himself and his friends
And you pretend he opened the first vapor lounge hahahahhahahhahaha
Plus the money to the mj party is mostly to himself along with the mayor money etc
This confirms all I ever said as the flake took most of the money himself hahhaha
I never ever received a cent from him and gave him thousands yet I was in those two elections he says he financed !!!!I paid my own way !!!kirk tousaw chris bennet and a host of other names are all employees and so is david melmo levine the so called court challenge...the renee bojee and steve kubby bribes hahhahahhaaa
I think anyone who looks at this and knows the people will see emery is a liar a flake and a charlatan
WOW NOW I KNOW IT WAS ALL LIES AND ONLY ABOUT LIVING THE HIGH LIFE FOR HIMSELF AND HIS 4 OR 5 WIVES
What idiots posting this pack of lies or twisted truths
BIZARRE
thanks jody ...that was really really stupid and I can pick holes through every cent and will hahahhahaa
You're sick, fellow. You need to stop obsessing about Marc Emery and get a life. He is a great hero to me and millions of others. Nothing you have ever said detracts one iota from that. You only shame yourself.
Shavluk says:
>>>"Emery in fact only gave money to those who worked for him"
Wow. The proof of that lie only sits about 10 inches above your post in Jodie Emery's partial list of the many organizations Marc contributed to. I personally know the leaders of two organizations that received such welcome support, and can vouch there was never any such relation involved.
Your credibility was blown with your first post here.
Yes some anonymous "Nobody Name" like you is going to stop me eh?.....hahhahhaha
You are as delusional as that prime prick of pot...the self appointed pimple of pot mark (his real name) emery
Like I give a rats ass what some idiot like you thinks?
Wow I have to say this is so funny to seeIts no wonder one of these fools threatened some one as emery encouraged this type of thing didnt he?And guess what ??
Its now official the green party is now buying my silence so I do not sue them again and I will soon be able to concentrate full time on exposing emery iot and his latest lying wife here and else where
If I wasn't so enthused because of jodys lies I would not bother but because of jonytomas here I must try and make sure anonymous nobodies actually have the factsI hope jody thanks you
Now lets take a little stroll through the past and talk about the lies here
If you go look at the figures and know who is who you will see that emery in fact only gave money to those who worked for him ...those he screwed ...and those he wanted to screw...as I suspected he tells lies and this list is terrific and was needed for my soon coming book
I just howl with laughter every time I read one of the delusional posts from some of these idiots who dont have any real clues as to what went on like little jony girl here
Stay tuned kiddies soon you will have so much to deny most of you wont be cheer leading for any one certainly not emery...unless you were the guy he let do him up the anus as I suspect eh jonygirl?
I hope all of you also notice jody silent on my comments knowing I am right and her lyingBut then we all know you arent interested in truth just fairytales....between you fairys right?
This man obviously needs professional help to address his mental state. In light of his threats of physical harm he obviously needs to be detained. I suspect If it wasn't Marc there would be someone or some thing else to obsess over. A sad and scary situation indeed.
i'm more interested in the legal specifics here. a Canadian citizen threatening across national borders. Who exactly is holding him? who will be charging him? are they going to extradite him to the US?
actually, you said he's in federal custody, so did they already extradite him to the us? Hell, he might end up in the same joint as marc, there's not that many places they stick foreign nationals.
In 1578 "The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war" Congress can stop this war I believe. Legalize remove from schedule one please,make this right.
Wow I would have to say he went a bit too far. I do tho understand his anger! But I DO NOT think sending death treats will help any cause! We have to stay above the board here. I think the way we need to go on this issue is we need to make ppl understand that you do not have to smoke cannabis to get the benefits. The media needs to start showing food, tincture, and vile's of oil along with those bongs and pipes!!! Because the real wellness of cannabis is through cannabis oil,diet and tropicals. And I think we need to get wellness stories out there real ppl real wellness!!! And I think we will begin to make real progress instead of remaining at a snails pace!
